1500 Engine project

[Paddy75]

I've found a 1500 block in a barn and while its had its head off for 30 years there are no pits on the bores, big ends are tight, is cranking over okay, no lip on the bores or side movement of the pistons. There is surface rust on the bores which is not scraping off when cranking the engine. Speaking to a guy who has re-built a lot of engines he reckons that the rings might just have stuck in their pistons so clean up the bores and free the rings and drive on.

Over the years I've bought a big valve head and a timing cover with the detachable hole for the cam sprocket. Today I got the last early 1600 camshaft from greenwood auto's.

So what happens when you screw a big valve head onto a 1500 fitted with a MK1 1600/MK2 1600GLS camshaft and with the 1300/1600 twin downpipe manifolds? The standard 1500 only spat out 63hoss even though the crt is 9.1:1, because of a mild camshaft and single downpipe, I suppose.

Keeping the 1.5'' SU would give about 70bhp I reckon? Always wanted a 1500. This is gonna be fun!

[JoKer]

heh reckon you'd be lucky to get 40hp out of anything these days, but that's pretty much Richard aka the forums 'Dad' setup minus the twin dellorto's & ground cam

still say that could be a 50hp setup at the max those manufacturer figures were usually measured with no ancillaries or fluids at the flywheel / crank

real world figures on a rolling road or Hub dyno are slightly more applicable & comparable

[Paddy75]

Well its all relative, power figures don't speak for what's actually happening at the wheels. I found a set of STD 1498cc rings with the chrome top ring, I figure that having to clean the bores will need a new set of rings to break in. Best to just take the block to an engineering shop to properly de-rust/glaze the bores and see if the clearances are still in spec'. As far as I know a chrome top ring needs a machined bore to bed in and a hand job (what a terrible phrase!) will not work.

What I'm hoping to do is get a 1500 to run with its valve timing optimized for the twin-downpipe manifolds so I bought a 19degree early 1600cc camshaft. By 19deg I mean the valve timing checking method where by you set #1 exhaust rocker to 0.1'' at TDC then crank around and where the pushrod starts to spin is the reference point.
The standard 1500 was 22deg, early 1600 19deg, TC's 12deg, later 1600 (the Hi-Torque) 25deg as was the 1250 and 1300 - according to Haynes.
So its not a 1500GT engine I'm hoping to end up with despite the big valve head, just a 1500 made for twin downpipes - if that makes any sense!
I wonder should I invest in a vernier cam sprocket, just see what happens first. This game is all money! There goes 100 quid already.
A trip to the engineering shop this week and take it from there.

[JoKer]

hah yea lil things snowball quickly eh

all awesome info keep us posted!

[Paddy75]

Ohh there are always complications! Greenwoods phoned me to say that the camshaft they listed is actually a Kent Cams re-profiled shaft. Kent reference MC24860 and the Talbot number 71981543.
As far as I know, which is not much, a re-profiled camshaft shortens the valve opening periods for high revving so I'll cancel the order. I'm not looking to build a racer just a 1500 with the valve timing for twin downpipes. I'll see if I can find the Avenger engine that came out of one of my Granda's MK1 Avengers that an Uncle of mine said is still lying in a ditch. All of his Avengers were 1500 and 1600's so if the block says L4 instead of LB it should be the early 1600.
Right gonna take the crank out of the 1500 (in the boot of my car! - a 2003 Skoda Octavia which has a huge trunk space) and assuming the new rings show up in the next day or two take it to the engineering shop. If they say yes then big valve head is coming out of storage. If they say no then maybe find +20 or 30 1500 pistons.

[Paddy75]

New set of 1500 rings at STD arrived, make Perfect Circle and has a chrome top ring. Put one of the top rings down into the bore, measured the gap at 16-17thou yaaayyyy! (tolerance 14-18)  Going to an engineering shop tomorrow to see if they can clean the bores and leave the right finish for a the new rings. Piston grade is B (0.4thou factory o/s) I hope this meant the piston skirt to bore gap was at the tight side of the tolerance which was 1.5-2.3thou for a 1500.

Oh lets blow out altogether, get them to grind in the valves in the new head. The bigends seem perfect no soft feeling on them at all and able to slide sideways easily. I'll fit the engine to the car with the head still off, easier to handle, just getting a day without rain is the thing.

[avengertiger]

you could always try mark at sops paddy his contact details are on asoc i got my standard ti cam of him new.
he may have others

[Paddy75]

Is the standard Ti camshaft the same as the early 1600? If not then would it be too hot for a single 1.5'' carburetor? Taking the engine towards the Tiger zone would really need a re-bore I'd reckon - but I don't know. The Tiger (and Ti?) was 9.4:1 crt, at least that's what the Haynes (Avenger 1970-8 Supplement p197) manual says about, 'Engine - 1500cc twin carburettor' 92.5bhp. Then on page 15 the 1500TC is listed as 9.2:1 giving 75bhp.

I guess the 1500TC on page 197 really meant the Tiger engine, which was not TC, Weber DCOE. The Tigers pistons are flat topped - I think.

Anyhow long meandering story short, was the Ti camshaft the same as the TC 12deg camshaft or the early 1600 19deg? I don't want to get into carburetor torture!

[oldschool]

I think you'll be fine with your early 1600 cam Paddy. They have a similar valve overlap to the Hillman GLS TC cam and work great with the 1.5" single carb and free-flow manifolds. The later Hillman GLS went back to a a single (1.75") carb anyway. You could ream out your manifold and fit a 1.75" carb for more top end if you want. 

[Paddy75]

Yeh I reckon the early 1600 camshaft is enough. Going hotter than that would need different carburation and that's a job for someone who knows about racing or 'souped-up' engines. I know where there is a set of downdraught Webers on an Avenger manifold but that was fitted to a re-built 1600 (MK1) and the engine was not running well with them, very jerky and lumpy and wrecked the compression. If you know how to set them up - great. If you don't then leave well alone.
The Avenger engine was prone to liner washing so fuel droplet size is pretty much a critical issue. The SU has a new jet and needle and the needle has a braided section which seems to be breaking up the fuel to a very fine degree going by the soot deposit on the pistons - so the 1.5'' SU is staying.

Anyhow the weather was dire this last week or so and I'm going to pull the crank out of the engine today and leave the block with the pistons still in to the engineering shop. Need a camera.

[Paddy75]

The 1500 block that was in a barn for 30 years.



Flywheel came off okay, spigot bearing is still free. Might end up having to replace the ring gear, likely is for an inertia reel starter.


Bit of paint still on the block. Guess how you can tell this engine came out of a GL?


Not so good snap of the bores.


Better.



No rust on the pins, greasy oily - as if was treated with STP - deposit on the pins and shells, seems good. The end float seems too much but I have a set of o/s thrust washers.



Seems like the 1500's consumption was good.


The dismantled block is with an Engineer and he reckons the hone and new rings should be okay but he found a lip on #3&4 cylinders. Mind you he said, ''..unfortunately I'm auld enough to mind working on these..'' so its with the right man.
He'll polish the crank as well as clean out the block. I left him a set of core plugs so no fear of tapping a couple of them out to give the water jacket a good scrape and clean. Also left him the big valve head and he is going to fit valve guide inserts to the exhausts.
Its all money this craic, I just hope the way the 1500 apparently had a tighter piston to bore fit than the 1600 means that there is a lot of tolerance to a re-hone.

Needs a good clean out. The sump was loose when I found it and the oil pump and a couple of bigend bolts were taken from it.

[JoKer]

my 1600 TC is not running toooo bad then eh?



and I'll bite : how do you know it's out of a GL : the H7?

[Paddy75]

I dunno what the H7 means but I'll admit the whole from a GL thing was a bit of a trick question. The lack of an oil pressure switch, I removed the brass union for the oil clock pipe for fear of it getting damaged.

I'll also admit that I don't have the first clue about how to set up Weber downdraughts so I'm being a total pussy by keeping the very basic SU carburetor. Whats on my mind about that 1500 engine is the end-float, I noticed that the bottom of the thrust washers were well worn and the #5 main bearing/shell was a bit blushed, pin looks okay though. I didn't think of that yesterday when I left the engine at the Engineers. Would excessive end-float cause greater wear on 3&4 pots compared to 1&2? Or is that a journal gone too oval?

Maybe I'm being na?ve thinking I can get away without grinding that crank. Well sure, see what the guy says. From taking apart the 1300 engine it would seem that these engines wear the mains more than or before the bigends. I noticed the main pins on the 1300 had a ridge or lip facing the oil groove. The crank out of the 1500 had the black mark as you'd expect to see which wiped off easily and no lip.
Its a pity that the #3 main shells have a hole in both shells, the cap side shells hole seems to trap dirt and cause a bit of scoring but hey, thinking a bit too much, its not meant to be a Ferarri engine.

Talking of 1500's here is a Top Hat special, there must have been a glut of BW35 auto-boxes so they put a white vinyl roof on a 1500Super - Top Hat, makes you think Top Cat. An Aunt of mine had one of these with a broken console and a brass door bolt screwed to the drivers door inside to stop the door coming open in motion!

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1972-HILLMAN-AVENGER-BASIC-AUTO-BLUE-FOR-RESTORATION-TAX-EXEMPT-/172098194419?hash=item2811da0bf3:g:WFUAAOSwx-9WvNzE

Oh yeh tax exempt, waiting for the 'tax book' (reg document) to come back on mine bearing the Taxation Class: Historic Vehicle - nil, nothing, nada no more Tax!