Avengers for sale around the world...

[Paddy75]

Are Marinas getting pricey? I can only guess that if this is so it could be a good venture to stockplile the front suspension trunnion kits! (..butbut..it broke again...gibbergibber...I greased them every week...)
A Marina TC or an Avenger GT or GLS, what a choice, yeh but sure wasn't the Marina 2-300cc greater, so surely that must mean that...
What it means is two very simple things. There was at least 20 years diffrence between the BL/BMC B-series engine and the Avenger motor.
1. The Ave lump had a proper low skirt with a high cam, so no inertia or 'throbbing' which wrecked bores.
2. The B (and A) series had sand cast combustion chambers so unless you were very lucky there was such a presseure diffrential that they blew head gaskets, leaked oil and often sledgehammered a nice big crack between #2&3 cylinders. This happened on a Mini, okay tell the horrible truth, a Metro I had!

Anyhow here is the Daddy of them all, and a T1 too. Oh if I won the lotto...

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Hillman-Avenger-Tiger-Mk1-/320942832829?pt=Automobiles_UK&hash=item4ab9aefcbd

Bulge wouldn't have been original, the T2 with the round lights had that, but fooking nice!
BRM made a 16v crossflow head for 'em too which won them just about all the major rally's untill Ford copied the idea with the mystical magical RS1800, a good point to make to an Escort harrier. Myths explode! Explode like Marina TC prop-shafts!

[NZTiger]

Paddy

Just to correct a couple of facts.

Mark 1 Tiger did have the Bonnet Bulge and this car is an original.

BRM headed Avengers motors were rubbish, came along well after the BDA and never won anything (and rarely even finished).

There were only a very small number made as the FIA required 20 kits to be made so they could be homolagated to Grp 4

[avenga]

Yup, the Mk1 tiger did have the black bonnet bulge and the square headlights. In the Mk2 Tiger they switched to the quad round headlights and blacked out normal flat bonnet.

It would have been good if chrysler had of developed the BRM head more, but unfortunately they dropped it.

[oldschool]

Didn't he pay about 6 grand for that a year ago...it was on eBay for ages. Now the starting price is 11,500 pounds?!
Is that realistic? I notice that Avengers in NZ dollars sell for the same pounds in the UK, so NZ $3000 = GBP 3000.
We don't have Tigers for sale here, the Alpine (GLS) is the most expensive model and they struggle to make $5000.
A few people have listed Tiger replicas at 8 to $10,000 but nobody's interested.

[Paddy75]

Yes I think that may be the same Tiger that maybe a speculator bought. Hard to say what is the real value of them. A 2-door GT sold for around ?6,000 and I seen on ASOC something about a Tiger sold for ?19,000 within ASOC and I can only guess it was in mint condition.
Sure there are a few guys building a Tiger out of a standard Avenger and a Tiger spoiler sold for ?200 recently on Ebay. GL grilles are fetching sweet prices too I see.
As for BRM I'm not a rally driver so fair play to you guys, you are right and I'm only going by what a Sunbeam fanatic told me. Something about the green stripe Tiger engined Avengers of the time.
There was a lot of successes for Avengers at the time I believe although as you say the highly modified engines would only last the course of one race. The gearboxes too couldn't take the abuse and I am told that today a lot of Avenger rallied cars are fitted with the Ford atlas axles and gearboxes. The Ave/beam axles being now hard to get and the gearboxes while thet had a nice shift were not able for rallying, I'm told the ZF 'box also ''..just left you with a bag of neutrals..''

Tigers, from what I'm told, needed engines rebuilt fairly often as you can expect from any motor with a very high compression. There is a rallying uncle-in-law of mine that was showing me a 205 block Pinto engine he built with a crt of 14:1, all the special materials, huge ports etc etc etc. He reckons the engine will give 200bhp but the bearings would need changed after every season.

I can only guess that the Peugeot engine is popular amongst some because that XU unit started out as a diesel so the crank and block is already able for very high compression.
All I know about rallying or high performance cars of that era is that you can get a lot of power fairly easily, the thing being its how much you spend to keep the power!

As Jackie Stewart said of motor racing, ''..it turns a large fortune into a small one..''

[Paddy75]

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1981-TALBOT-AVENGER-GL-factory-black-fully-restored-1000s-spent-very-rare-car-/320943213163?pt=Automobiles_UK&hash=item4ab9b4ca6b

One of the last. Right enough I don't recall seeing many black ones. Still wish PSA did a last 1,000 swan-song run in 1981 of the MK1 shape.

[oldschool]

I was exhausted after reading what he'd done to it...looks like he re-built a basket case?!
Looks mean in black, don't know about that Tiger spoiler though??

[Paddy75]

I don't recall any black Hunters either. Probabbly a Rootes Group thing they mainly sold to private buyers, middle-aged, milldle-income, middle-class buyers. They did sell at a slight premium compared to Fords or BMCs of the time.
At the time I suppose black mean't common, a black Morris Minor or Ford Popular.

I have a few old magazines from the time and the jist I get is that the early Avengers were still sold mostly to private buyers and car-hire firms. Chrysler UK was still headed by Lord Rootes in the early 1970s so perhaps the colour schemes were still directed to be exclusive.
Ceartanly it would seem that Rootes/Chrysler had a lot of problems getting fleet orders even though the Avenger was noted as being an orthodox car ''..as far as you can go without becoming complicated..'' so better marketing maybe could have broken through the fleet barrier, which Ford were experts at judging.

I see that by the mid-'70s the Hunter was popular with fleet managers, so thats why they stayed in production so long. There was a serious complaint about Avenger valve stem problems but compared to MK3 Cortina camshaft failures at 15,000 miles this must have seemed a minor issue!

As is said, ''..the Avenger couldn't compete with the big boys, uncle Henrys all-conquering Cortina..'' (who could?)
Rootes Group cars were not seen as natural fleet cars even though the Avenger with its conventional but modern design with the big boot and much better fuel consumption than those thirsty Fords was an ideal fleet car.

The black art of marketing, Chrysler too were not very good at this also!

As for the Tiger spoiler, well if it doesn't grow on the next owner then he can always sell it. Probabbly get ?300 fot it!

[Paddy75]

A 'Chrysler75' Brochure arrived today and I see that as guessed the S5 1300 got 4.11:1 from 4.37 on the S4. 1600 remaining at 3.89 and the blurb also states 36mpg on the 1300, the change in the timing and slightly higher gearing I suppose.
The steering wheel motif is now black, the S4 was still blue, going by the '74 Avengers brochure. Then the Sunbeam type window winders.
The GT has the option of 'Roplas' wheels as does the Hunter GT - the only part that was the same on a Hunter and Avenger, the wheels!
I notice too the '75 brochure mentions 'Hillman Avenger' on every page, maybe a bit of market research had indicated a few bad vibes toward 'Chrysler' I read somewhere there was an arguement within Chrysler UK about dropping the Hillman name.
No mention of the Sue carbie, maybe this was an option? Or a change mid'thru '75 as the brochure is Oct74.
Series 5 (Sept'74 build) is when the front struts became concave mounted. I can only guess this was approx' the same in NZ.
Really fancy that Avenger GT, not sure about the Roplas wheels though, look a bit like the 'knuckley' plastic hubcaps on Mini Clubmans!

[Paddy75]

A good 2k Avenger. Tiger? 1972? Well maybe it really is, the 8 fusebox and the Delco clocks situated like the Smiths with the speedo on the 2nd pod yadeyadeya the door trims are 1972 and don't you love the extinguisher in the door pocket and the other Avengers in the background. Good Avenger for ?2.5k and fair play to the lad that built that Tiger.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1972-HILLMAN-AVENGER-TIGER-wardance-red-on-the-road-ready-to-go-Bargain-/320954727057?pt=Automobiles_UK&hash=item4aba647a91

[oldschool]

Looks like it might be an original Tiger Paddy...has lost its air box and 2nd brake booster...you can see the 4 mounting holes on the firewall.
An original Tiger looks like this under the bonnet...

[Paddy75]

Right so it is a wardance Tiger, I see the bidding is at ?3,600 so far.

This one could be a steal for someone, a 1600 Automatic in poo brown sandalwood with a perfect dashboard too!

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Hillman-Avenger-Super-1600cc-Auto-34-606-miles-from-new-/150870483212?pt=Automobiles_UK&hash=item232094e10c

Same interior as mine and the eagle eyed can spot a Delco speedometer there, so thats where the Delco round instruments Avenger speedo I seen a while back on ebay went to!

It was registered four days before mine. BTW if a car is pre-Oct 1975 it is exempt from the emissions test.

I believe they were a good Automatic still today even and the Weber? downdraught carbie no doubt helps.
Fair enough if a bit of work has been done to it I see the Super trim level bulkhead foam is gone. Pontypridd, that is not far from a Ferry port!

[oldschool]

Yeah looks good Paddy...that vintage AA badge will increase its value too!!
Speedy have the Delco rev counter to go with the speedo. Easy to fit as the main wires are in the loom, just need to run a black wire to the coil - terminal.

[Paddy75]

Wow AND has the GLS tinted windows, wonder was that an option. It'll be intresting to see what that Avenger goes for. I suppose a lot of people will be put off by the colour and it being an auto and both those things would soon grow on a reluctant owner.

hahaha, see this question,
Q: Hi would you do a straight swap including delivery for a rare 1990 2.0i Nissan bluebird saloon automatic executive model full leather all electrics sunroof towbar alloys aircon just passed Northern Ireland mot thanks dee
A: Hi sorry no I wouldn't

What did I tell you guys about Irish people and Avengers!? The 'Northern Ireland MoT' is very diffrent from the GB MoT. Irs run by a gov't agency rather than a private garage so its like a Cop is testing the car.
That Avenger looks like a good one for sure. Maybe the production run during early 1975 was blessed with dry weather or a good batch of steel? Or a dilligent factory Foreman told the lads to use the waxoil spray gun?
If that was so likely he got fired or caused a strike.

More likely is deeper or darker colours tend to be a bit better at holding back the rust.

[oldschool]

Yes, darker panels retain heat longer, so more water evaporates resulting in less rust from soaking...could be why Uncle Henry painted the Model T black = cheap rust proofing...LOL