Carb talk/ Paddy B discusions

[JoKer]

Hey folks, I need and am buying a new a carbie for a 1300, have a choice, a 1.75'' SU, or a 1.5'' Stromberg.

The SU has no vacum in the dashpot, the Stromberg has.

I think the SU was used as a universal on the 75 on Avenger, same carb could be fitted (just diffrent needle) on a 1725cc Hunter/Arrow.

Looking at old brochures the Stromberg was fitted to the '74 Avenger 1300, My 75 1300 Super has the original factory fitted carb, but its, right enough for a 37 year old carbie - its f*** and its the SU.

I reckon the car is only giving 20mpg - hey, the Avenger was not the Escort! Avengers gave 30-35mpg when running right.

The air filter smells badly of fuel, the plugs are sooty and you can start it cold without the choke. So needs a new yoke. I've found a place where I can get a new, either SU or Stromberg CD3 or CD, same price.

What do u think?

Paddy B.

welcome to the forums dude, I dont really do pm's

all of that is way over my head - I just plug and play

others may/will have more info

[Paddy75]

and have ordered an SU repair kit so maybe see which runs better.

[oldschool]

There's a few Avenger Stromberg carbs on eBay Paddy.
If the filter is clean, could be your SU just needs the mixture adjusting?
As carbs wear out they run leaner, from air sucking into the manifold around the butterfly spindle.
Always remember my old Mk3 Cortina GT, did 28 mpg with a worn carby, got it overhauled and she dropped down to 25 mpg...lol

Avengers give a lot of trouble with oily fumes pissing into the air cleaner through the flame trap. I re-route the flame trap hose from the rocker cover to the air filter inlet neck - that way any oil will just drip out the neck and stay well away from the filter - see my article in the technical section.

[Paddy75]

Okay well the PayPal account has been charged up. So I'm in the market for a TC manifold and 2 strombergs. Do it right!

[avenga]

If you are going to do it right get 2 Dellorto DHLA40's. Much better, see my '75 or my '80 or JoKer's rally car for more about the Dellortos but Avengers love them.

[oldschool]

Twin Dellortos might drown that little 1300...lol

[Paddy75]

Hey, there was a 1300TC model! I'd doubt though they left the factory with Dellortos though!

[oldschool]

Yeah...I think all the TC's (Twin Carbs) were CD Strombergs, while the Tiger was the only model to use Webers?
Avengers never left the factory with Dellortos despite what Wikipedia says...lol

[avenga]

Wikipedia is lies!!

[Paddy75]

Well an uncle-in-law of mine is a MK2 Escort rally ace, he is near 50 years old and still drives like a mad 18 year old. He repairs crashed rally cars, mostly forestry competitions and I had a long talk about Avengers/Sunbeams with him. I remember him driving - like a bat out of hell - several Sunbeams about 20 years ago. He said he used to get 110mph out of a 1300cc Sunbeam (the chopped Avenger) and had great fun leaving 2.0 Opel Mantas for dust, he just didn't take his foot off the pedal, nerve, extreme nerve!

So he said the Avenger/Sunbeam had a few problems, as a rally car. The front hub stubs could often wring off, the gearbox could bust and the back end could warp. I guess the Escort had a stronger floor pan. But sure any rally car needs a lot of upgrading. The Avenger however had one big advantage over the Escort as the engine could rev a lot higher (so you could rev a Sunbeam through the roof) and as a cheap entry into the rallying world they used to mate a Ford gearbox to the Rootes engine with Dellorto carbs and you kept a few front struts on stand-by.

Anyhow as for as wether the SU or Stromberg is better he reckoned the Stromberg would make them run sweeter as (just as I thought) the 1.75'' is a universal carbie which means that any wear in them at all and you have a big problem. The one on mine as I say is the post April '75 build so it got the SU. Wether this change was made because Chrysler UK got a dig-out from the government so they were obliged to increase local content, or it was just Chrysler being hungry is a debatable point.

My Avenger wouldn't start last friday night and I found that the carb was the problem, the metering tube had jammed down. So I took the SU out of it the next day and seen that the pot seemed pretty loose and the mixture adjuster was at the minimum but the car is running rich, carb soaking etc and even fuel vapor coming back out of a removed spark-plug! I was thinking of changing the carb, hence this thread, so the failure to start finally pushed me to get it done.

Talking about the Sunbeam, legend has it that over a weekend a few guys in Chrysler UK chopped an Avenger to make a more compact Avenger with a hatchback to compete with the Ford Fiesta and to have the Linwood factory something usefull to do as the Hillman Imp was long overdue the axe, the Imp was the main reason Rootes went bust in the first place, the warranty costs pushed Rootes over the brink and into the hands of Chrysler.
The reason I'm going on about the Sunbeam in relation to the carbs is that I asked him did he ever see a SU on a Sunbeam - No. Then I see that when they came out with the MK2 (Chrysler) Avenger they went back to using the Stromberg.
So the case for the prosecution is closed. The SU was a mistake! Probabbly okay on the 1725cc Hunter but when you fit a 1.7-2.2 litre ranged carbie to a 1300cc and just use a thicker needle to compensate then guess what, a bit of wear and you get a fuel guzzler.
Same mistake Ford made with their V.V carburettor, I remember them! Green diaphram, black diaphragm what the heck ever! After they got a little wear the car drank like an alcoholic.

So next Saturday, presuming the Stromberg arrives my Avenger gets the more standard Hillman fitment. The CD3 I've ordered is needled for a 1500cc and I din't think thats really a problem, sure if I take a rush of blood to my head and I fit the Tiger head I got then a single 1500cc optimized carbie on a 1300cc big inlet valved head I guess will run okay. The reason its needled as a 1500cc is because it was the only 1.5'' Stromberg CD3 I could find with the correct rod linkage as it looks like most of the Strombergs you see on ebay are made for the cable operated throttle as used on the MK2. You cannot interchange the linkage on the SU to the Stromberg unfortunatly and I like the way the rod throttle linkage feels on the foot.

Next on the agenda is fitting the 3.89:1 diff on the car as it (according to the part code) currently has the 4.11:1 although the way the enging is revving so high at 60mph I wouldn't be suprized if it actually has the 4.37:1 in it. My rally driving relative also told me that he had given away so many Avenger/Sunbeam parts, including Rootes to Ford bellhousings!!! Dammit!!!!

[oldschool]

Great to hear those stories from the old days Paddy!!
As the Avengers were made from thin steel they had to flex somewhere!! A big problem was the floor of course.
One of my seat mounts broke free under the car and my mechanic had trouble mig welding it back on...kept blowing holes in the floor...you can see how they rust out so easily!!
I agree about the SU and Strombergs...strombergs anyday...people moan about rough running and idling, but my 1600 runs and idles sweetly with its stromberg...cause it doesn't have a worn spindle...haha
As it's fitted with an Alpine motor I want to upgrade the 1.5" carby to 1.75", but could only find 1.75" SU's...yuk!!
Managed to track down a 1.75" stromberg finally...from a Rover 3500 and am getting it fitted to my spare 1.5" inlet manifold. They'll make a 4 stud 1.75" mounting block and weld it to the 1.5" inlet manifold.
Would have liked to have gotten an 1.75" inlet manifold like the English GLS used, but they're extremely rare in NZ.
I've never seen an Avenger with a 1.75" inlet manifold...even my 1979 1600 GLS has a 1.5" one.
So all going well I'll soon have a better breathing Avenger...the needle should be fine...1/2 a Rover (1750) isn't much different to 1600, like the 1500 carby on your 1300.
About your 1300 gearing...they all had 4.11 diffs and rev like crazy...
3650 rpm @ 60 mph with standard 155/80 tyres, dropping down to 3450 with a 3.89 diff.
Using 165/80 tyres will knock another 100 rpm off and if you're really keen, you can fit 175/80 tyres on 5J rims to knock a further 100 rpm off!! That's what I've got fitted to my 1600, purrs along nicely on the motorway...can even have a conversation...lol

[blekkja]

Would have liked to have gotten an 1.75" inlet manifold like the English GLS used, but they're extremely rare in NZ.
I've never seen an Avenger with a 1.75" inlet manifold...even my 1979 1600 GLS has a 1.5" one.

sure i've got one on mine.

*goes outside*

yep. originally off a 77 alpine with an autobox. its really good. simpler than mucking about with a tc set up.

[oldschool]

Yeah, I only know of one other NZ Avenger with a factory 1.75" carby and that's a 1977 Alpine Auto too...maybe the only model to get it?
While the TC has more power, tuning was always a problem. Using one carb saved money too, even more so when the face lifted Chrysler Avenger went back to the 1.5" carb.

[blekkja]

my other 77 was originally an alpine auto too, but already had a manual box and different engine. 73 and 76 were only gls'. not sure about original trans - what models had the option of the bw?. i don't think any of those cars had more than a 1.5'' on them.

tc alpines, i recall, were made between 74 and 76? it would make sense then that the top spec cars would have bigger carbs between then and the rebranding. and autos, although mine wasn't too bad [apart from being fucked], did need the extra power.

[oldschool]

Maybe only the 1976-77 Hillman Avenger Alpine Auto (GLS in UK) had the bigger 1.75" carb? One sold on eBay here:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/140623313164?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649

My 1976 Hillman Avenger 1600 Super Auto had a 1.5" and it looks like all the Chryslers whether manual or auto did as well.

http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Listing.aspx?id=413385645

The original Avenger 1500 auto used a 3 speed BW35 - I've never seen one, anybody else?
With the update to 1600 in late 1973 (UK) the 4 speed BW45 was used. NZ updates ran about 6 months behind the UK, so we had 1974 1500 and 1600 Avengers and 1977 Hillman and Chrysler Avengers being sold together!